Episode 7: Eva Woolridge
Award-winning Photographer
SPEAKERS
Scott Robson, Kerstin Martin, Intro, Kate Jaeger-Thomas
Intro
Welcome to Less than Likely a podcast featuring honest behind the scenes stories of real entrepreneurs and thir less than likely journeys in creating successful businesses. Kate and Scott chat with founders from all industries and stages in business development to bring you the real, the brave and the messy of building something larger than yourself while being human.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
Hey everyone, this is Kate.
Scott Robson
And this is Scott.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
And we have got such a treat for you. We are introducing you all to the one and only Eva Woolridge today. And I met Eva when I was a speaker coach for my local TEDx event. And Eva was a speaker. She is an award winning Queer, Black and Chinese portrait photographer, public speaker and social activist based in Brooklyn. She has been a good friend of mine and somebody I've worked with over the years, and she's just so incredible that I knew I wanted to have her on this show. So her photo series explore the sexual, spiritual and emotional nature of femininity. Her personal and journalism work for publications like Rolling Stone, Teen Vogue, and Architect Magazine, they transcend surface level labels of People of Color by conveying strength, perseverance, vulnerability and vitality. Eva speaks nationally about photography and its relationship to identity. She has her TEDx talk. She's also spoken at the Schomburg Research Center in Harlem, NYC, the Scope Art Show, and as a keynote for the University of Maryland, College Park. You are really in for a treat, we go into so many different places in this conversation.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
Scott, what are you excited about here?
Scott Robson
I'm so thrilled to have her on because one of the things is as an art school kid myself, you know, I know that artists are very often left out of the table of entrepreneurship conversations, and they are absolutely entrepreneurs. So we really, really you and I, when we were putting together this season, we wanted to have an artist on who really could represent that space. And Eva not only Fills that, but I think the conversation that we have with her touches on so many things that are important to entrepreneurs, and also to people in the photography and in the artist space, I think this is going to be a real treat for everybody.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
I 100% agree with you. And what I also love about this conversation is that Eva is so clearly a rising star, she has so much brilliance to share. She's an educator as much as she is an artist and she already is and is going to continue to develop as a vital voice of this generation that is just 100% Clear. So to talk to her now, when she's really fairly early on in her journey, it's such a rare moment to have that look in when she's just picking up steam. She's already incredibly accomplished. And she's so open about her experience that she's had thus far. I just know our listeners are in for a really special treat.
Scott Robson
You guys are absolutely going to love it. So without further ado, here is Eva Woolridge.
Intro
Welcome to Less than Likely, a podcast featuring honest behind the scenes stories of real entrepreneurs and thier less than likely journeys and creating successful businesses. Kate and Scott chat with founders from all industries and stages in business development to bring you the real, the brave and the messy of building something larger than yourself while being human.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
It is amazing to have you on the podcast. Thank you so much for joining us today.
Eva Woolridge
You already know I'm a huge fan of your work and then being able to meet Scott is truly it's an honor,
Scott Robson
we're so excited to have you here today. We really truly are. And when Kate first talked to me about you, I was like yes, yes. Can we please have Eva on? She sounds amazing.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
Yeah, amazing with like no filter, I recently realized I don't have a filter. I think I'm late to the game to understand that, but everyone else is like "Girl? What? You know, hold back a little."
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
Oh, I would never want to see you filtered
Eva Woolridge
Me either!
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
That would be really, really, you know, I feel like we would all be missing out. So we always start our conversation with one question, which is what makes you or your business less than likely?
Eva Woolridge
I am a self taught photographer. I'm a self taught director. I am a self taught public speaker. These are all areas that I did not expect to enter. But I have always trusted myself and what felt good. So though I went to University of Maryland as a Communication and PR major, ha, threw that degree behind me and I was photographing, you know, during school, and I continued to photograph and recognize that that was my form of storytelling that I wanted to be persistent.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
So what was the moment you were at University of Maryland, College Park or?
Eva Woolridge
Yeah, College Park.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
I'm a Maryland girl, so I'm aware.
Scott Robson
This is the Maryland connection that I'm not going to be able to compete with.
Eva Woolridge
Look, we got the Brooklyn connection like please
Scott Robson
That's true. We're good. We're good. Yeah.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
So you were in School for Communications and PR. When was the first time you picked up a camera and take us from that moment and how you created this business.
Eva Woolridge
I've always had a camera. I had a Canon point & shoot, I would carry around in middle school and high school. I have so much photographs of my teen years and of my friends I have not released but my ten year is coming up. So I feel like had some valuable treasures. It wasn't until I think I was a sophomore in college in the summer where I was talking to an old high school friend saying how much I love photography. And he challenged me and said, if you actually want to make it as a photographer, you have to start showing your work. And it's such a silly concept, you think it'd be like such an easy, obvious thing. But so I wasn't familiar with being as vulnerable to show my work and to say I am a photographer. But that was the year where I decided to take it seriously. And so in school, I did take two film classes just to learn a little bit more about the techniques, the traditional methods, but that's where I learned how to do studio photography. And my teacher Sora DeVore is an amazing photographer, but really taught me that the best photography can be taken in your own backyard. Uou don't need to go on like international places, and communities that you may or may not resonate with, to take a quote unquote, interesting photo. The real photographers are able to make that connection with their subjects no matter where they are, including in their own community. At the same time, I knew I did not want to do an office job when I graduated. So I started building my portfolio doing grad photos on campus for like $70 thinking that was a lot of money. I was like, Whoa, can they even handle that, like, you know, I would go to Baltimore on the weekends and photograph raves for $75 for like six hours, which is really insane. But it was a great way to experiment and start seeing myself as professional. At the same time I made two series that were personal to me. So it was Peeled Paint, which was influenced by a French photographer, Theirry Le Gouès, which I cannot say his name, so apologies. But he made an amazing photo book that I grew up with called Soul that showed very dark Black bodies with light background and showing anatomy without being hyper sexual. And that was such a beautiful influence because it was a abstract way to show Blackness in a celebratory way. And so Peeled Paint was inspired by that, where I put acrylic paint mixed with coconut oil on bodies, which wasn't the best move. But you know, we're all students learning.
Scott Robson
I hope it was easy to get off.
Eva Woolridge
It wasn't. It was very painful. And I'm so thankful for my friends who volunteered and were not paid to do any of that. That being said, it was absolutely beautiful. And I learned first and foremost that the shoot never works out the way you think it will. But it does not mean that what comes out isn't valuable. Because like the paint was peeling off creating these beautiful textures on their faces and their bodies, I got close to and zoomed out. And the second lesson was how my process works, which is finding the meaning and the message of my work comes after I photograph. And so I didn't really know how to label or what message I was trying to stay. But once I was looking at the work, what came to me was spirituality and like what is it like when you're in your early 20s trying to navigate the world and you have this mask of performance. And slowly as you get to know yourself more and you experience life more, that paint begins to chip off, that mask becomes crumbly, and it starts to peel off your face. And that was where the message stood. So that was how I started to see how my personal work can develop.
Scott Robson
What I find really interesting about what you just said, too, is this shift that happened for you between being the artist and being the viewer of your own art and that experience of being able to re-approach it with a fresh set of eyes and be able to get additional meaning out of it. Is that something that you continue to do today or was that part of your initial process?
Eva Woolridge
Absolutely. And I find comfort in it because I think there's a lot of pressure for up and coming photographers or artists to feel like they have to have a message that they are rooted in before they even pick up their equipment or their paint. And we don't have to put that much pressure on yourself. It's okay for you to sit with what you created and really figure out what came out of it. Another example years later It was The Size of a Grapefruit series that became award winning.
Scott Robson
I love those photos, by the way, they're so beautiful. Oh my gosh.
Eva Woolridge
Thank you. And where it really came from was a simple prompt that was, that Leica asked, which was "what is a women's issue in the United States that you want to discuss?" Let's talk about the most recent event that happened to me at that moment, which was experiencing a ovarian cyst and having that surgery and what it was like to go through that process. That was the simple prompt. I think, in my head, I just envisioned, well, I want a full figure model, I want my model to be Black because I am Black. I at the same time, I want there to be strong contrast, I was really trying to figure out how Theirry the photographer that I loved how he created that Soul series. And so I was researching, again, doing a second attempt of how to best show light and dark contrast. So I knew I wanted a very dark skinned model. I knew I wanted to make heavy contrast and lighting. And I knew I wanted to use a grapefruit, because that's how big my cyst was. And that was it.
Scott Robson
You talk about this experience with your cyst on your TED talk, I believe is that right? And that's where you and Kate know each other?
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
Yes. Yeah. You know, everybody should watch your TEDx talk, because you're amazing. And that was a moment because you and I came together. Let's be honest, I mean, everybody wants to know all about that.
Eva Woolridge
At that moment, that's when we met, I will never forget.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
It was it was it was amazing. I feel the same way. But one of the things you talk about in that TEDx talk, and I know is important part of your work is that it was a very healing moment for you. You had experienced so much trauma, certainly the medical trauma, but also the racial trauma that you experienced as you were going through the hospital and reflecting on the experience of so many Black women in the medical system and in reproductive rights and all that you became unfortunately really intimately aware of and personally. And you talk about it, the photography of The Size of a Grapefruit being a very healing experience for you. Can you share how?
Eva Woolridge
I'm so happy you asked that question. And I think it even goes back to what Scott was asking to which was trying to figure out how to define my work once it's done. And it was like creating The Size of a Grapefruit photo series and photographing gave me a sense of control artistically, right. And so I was able to visually show something extremely beautiful. And then when I was writing the grant, and really trying to find meaning in each photograph that I took and assign meaning to it, it became very intimate, very personal, very difficult to process. What I found looking at those images, were me it was me processing each vulnerable moment I had, when I first felt the pain of the cyst, when I went to the urgent care and experienced these microaggressions from a white female doctor, being so dismissed and pushed aside once I got to the hospital, shocked at how common this was. And this wasn't a concern. This was like the sixth cyst that they had that week and was only like a Tuesday or something. And I'm like, why is there not a urgency to figure out what is causing this and why so many women, not just Black women, but all women are experiencing fibroids and ovarian cysts, and what are the symptoms which could have avoided me losing my right ovary? And what is it like not only hormonally when your body's trying to readjust having one ovary left, but also what the invasive procedure feels like? And what does it feel like to be so vulnerable in your womanhood? And I was only I think 26 when it happened and it made me like really question can I even have kids? It was it was too much for one person to process. And if I didn't have a photo series to target and focus all that energy to reflect on this experience, I don't even know if I would have healed yet to be honest. I remember when we were practicing the TED Talk. And this was the first time I was on stage to describe the experience. And I couldn't do it, I was I started sobbing. And I can't thank you enough for holding me in that moment of like you don't have to rush or even continue if you don't want to, you are clearly still processing this. And as such a young adult still at that moment. I didn't know that my body was going to do that. I didn't know I was going to have these physical reactions to this experience that happened a year before. So that is how powerful art can be to force you to process something that you have to process in order to move on. It was definitely life changing for many, many different reasons.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
You didn't talk that much about in the TEDx talk about how your experience of going straight into, you know, each individual moment was healing for you. But what you do then talk about is the act of sharing it and what happens when you start to get other people's experiences reflected back to you, which is, you know, so there's the power to heal yourself, right? And then there was also this healing ripple effect that happened in terms of having other women really seeing themselves in your work. There's so much power to sharing our experiences.
Eva Woolridge
That was a lot to take in, to be honest. And I was not prepared mentally of how much feedback I would get of other people's hospital traumas, reproductive traumas. But once it was released and I received the award, to receive all of these stories of this happened to me, and this happened to my mom, this happened to my sister, I felt seen through your work, it almost took away my pain. And I became, I felt more like a champion for other people. And that was a responsibility that I put on myself that I was more than happy to be, and to use photography as that form of storytelling to help inspire other people to either talk about their experience, take action to share their experience with others or just to reflect on it themselves. But recently, I have found that it can almost be too distracting from my own healing. I am currently in this stage of like healing from a sexual assault that happened 10 years ago. And this year is the year I'm really processing it. And I've recently worked with a specialist, I was realizing that it was so easy for me to distract and think that I am being vulnerable, think that I am sharing all of these experiences, because I know it'll help other people. But I was completely distracting myself of what I actually needed, which is time with myself, that isn't for another person, like I need to be present for myself. And I'm sure that I'm going to have a series come out of this, out of my healing with this assault, not to be about trauma, but more to be about what the experience is like to return back to yourself. Yeah, so it's been a really big journey, a big circle journey, about how much to give to others, through my storytelling.
Scott Robson
Thank you for sharing that, first of all. I know that that was really personal. And I know that wasn't easy. You know, sometimes our, our practices and our way of expressing ourselves can hold something and hold it really well. And other times you know, it just doesn't and every trauma is different, right? And they all need to be treated differently. And from an artistic standpoint, we're not always ready to share those things when we want to be or when we think we should. So just kudos to you for for processing that at your own speed. I think that that is just being really kind to yourself. You know?
Eva Woolridge
Thank you. It was just funny too, because I remember after I had my surgery, my dad was like, you don't have to, like share everything with everyone. And that was like, at that moment, it was almost like rebelliousness too, because I was like, Well, I absolutely am going to share because this is important. And so right now I'm trying to find that balance, because to your point, these are important issues that I know I feel comfortable sharing because I want spotlights on them. I want people to recognize that these are things that happen to everyone and anyone. At the same time, how do you return to yourself and not give too much for the cause? So thank you for adding in reminding me of that.
Scott Robson
Yeah, absolutely. As artists, what do we give over and what don't we give over? You know what, like, what is safe for us to express and what is ours? I think it's for artists, specifically artists who have a business being an artist, such as you are. I think that that can be a really tough boundary to navigate. Because so much of yourself is in your business. I can imagine that that's just really, really difficult to discern sometimes when you're sort of, hey, I'm open to talk about this and other times and you're thinking, gosh, you know, this is mine right now and it's really not ready to be to be shared yet.
Eva Woolridge
Well, I think there is a difference now that I am learning the business side of photography and artistry and like the personal side, I can separate the personal work and the commercial work, which I think is really important. If we can be successful as an artist, what can that look like? And how much are you willing and can't sacrifice your artistic freedom for a project? And I personally don't see myself as too good or too creative or too artistic to work for a commercial job. Like I have no problem if there's a specific corporation or client that that I agree with first and foremost, that wants to hire me for a campaign they have. Then if that is a check in order for me to have the freedom to make my personal work, then absolutely.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
Can we talk about that journey in terms of like, I think you were starting with the comment, but that your friend says if you want to, you know, if you want to be a photographer, you need to show your work. And then you start charging for your work. And then you start writing grants for an award, right? These are all decisions that you've made towards the business of your art. Can you walk us through that experience? How have those two worlds like collided? Were they always integrated for you? Did you have to actively integrate your artistry and your business? What was that like?
Eva Woolridge
When I graduated college I was so set on I'm going to be a photographer. I don't know how, again I didn't go to school for it specifically, but I'm going to be a photographer. And so I worked in a nonprofit, my first job as a Communication and Development Assistant. And when I tell you I might have been the worst assitant, yes, probably. Was I most charming and well liked? Absolutely.
Scott Robson
That can get you really far.
Yeah that can really take me far. So, I remember when I went to another company called Creative Circle, which I will like proudly talk about because it did so much for me. It's a creative staffing agency and I originally went there to be a freelance creative. I had no experience doing commercial work, I only had personal work to share. And so my portfolio to me at the time was strong, but not quite at the level I think that people were expecting. But when I went in for that meeting with a recruiter, I was my social Eva, how you doing, talking to the receptionist, sha-la-la and my recruiter who actually ended up being one of my really good friends, Alessandra. She was like, Well, I don't know what your situation right now with work, but like we are looking for a receptionist, so... And I was like, honestly, anywhere to get me out of this job, please get me the fuck out of here. So I ended up being a receptionist for about five years. It was a perfect place to have a stable job, have health insurance, be around creatives all day. You have creatives coming in for their own freelance stuff. I met friends, I've met producers, I met one of the TEDx founding producers. It was like a whole database available for me to explore what the creative field looks like commercially and artistically.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
Wow, that's great.
Eva Woolridge
It was it was truly, I was so so lucky to be a part of that. And when I got the grant was when I felt like, Okay, someone is seeing my work, like I have something to say and people are listening to it.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
One thing that keeps coming up for me is like, Well, you're the one who went after the Leica Award, right? You submitted yourself, you you put the project together and you you know, created the vision for it. And then you articulated it. And so what meaning does that moment and that decision have for you?
Eva Woolridge
Well, it's funny, even when you say I was the one to do this, I still rely so heavily on the people around me and I see it as such a community effort. Because the person that told me about the grant was a kid from college that works at the Diamondback newspaper, who I internally felt so competitive with. And I want to share this because I think people feel so competitive with each other all the time. And I was so young thinking like I have to be the best oh, he works at a Diamondback, oh well. Then he asked me to be in the Diamondback and I was like okay, I guess he's pretty cool.
Scott Robson
Okay, this is okay.
Eva Woolridge
He turns out to be one of my biggest supporters, and has always watched my work develop. And he was the one that shared the grant with me saying I think you should apply this. This could be interesting.And if he didn't do that, I wouldn't have known about the grant. But it was almost I think creating a new series for this grant, it felt very vulnerable. It felt like well, I'm giving my all, if you don't, this is just like any other grant, so if you don't want it like, I'm going to try not to have it speak to my characters as an artist, but it can be very emotionally taxing and feel like you're not of value if you can't hit the mark, just like that. So when I got the email that I won the grant, I was shocked. It was a simple email that changed my life, I felt that finally, because the work was so personal, I can be trusted to create something that can help other people and that my voice has value. I don't want to suggest that a grant will be the only source for you to feel valuable in artistry, that's completely is not the case. But I think because I was juggling corporate, regular day to day job with trying to be a successful artist, it's so easy to want to give up. And there were stages in the four or five years that I worked there, that I was like, I should just throw out photography, I should just figure out a different path. I can maybe do photo director stuff, be a photo editor, but like, I don't want to do this anymore. I'm tired. And me making that work was not like the last straw, because it still felt so important for me to make. But it was almost like, I got injected with like a recharge of energy saying like, you can do this, and you're meant to do this, keep going. I have not won a grant since. And I want to emphasize that.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
But a lot has happened since right.
Scott Robson
I was gonna say, you've had a couple of things happen since then.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
Yeah, and I want to I want to spend some time on that. So you got the grant, you and I met with your TEDx talk. You were sharing your story. And then a lot happened after that. So let's just paint the picture a bit. It was March that you and I met, March of 2020. Right? No, February,
Eva Woolridge
February.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
Yeah. So three weeks later, we would all be shut down. In fact, Eva and I were scheduled to have lunch on like on a Thursday, right? We were doing celebrate we on a Thursday. And I was like, I can't come in, I think we need to go into lockdown. You're like yeah, yeah, I think so too. But it was like, I remember that that conversation. And that was like the last time I saw you in person, I think. Anyway, so that's what happened. And then we went into the summer of 2020, which was also a really pivotal moment for you in well, and for our whole frickin world. Let's be honest. But can you talk about what happened with the protests and your work?
Eva Woolridge
Absolutely, the George Floyd, and the Breonna Taylor protests began. And I found myself photographing, not on assignment, but just photographing the different movements, just because I wanted to do something, do anything that can help support the cause. And the most valuable thing I could do was share what I saw. This was a time where I had white male photographers screaming at me to get out of there shot for protests that was about for my safety, which I thought was very ironic. And it was very frustrating. Because who are you to be a person of so much importance in a space that is supposed to be for my safety, my community, and I deserve every right if not more right to photograph my community as we try to progress forward human justice, human rights that can impact everyone.
Scott Robson
By the way, that pissed me off so much.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
Exactly, yeah.
Scott Robson
I have to say it's just like this commoditization of a movement that has nothing to do with you. It just, ah, I'm sorry.
Eva Woolridge
I know, but what an important time to be able to discuss and share that because this has been happening for years. Ever since the invention of photography, ever since lynching postcards were shared across the world, as a way of like, guess what family like here's a photograph of this Black person being lynched in the South. Like we had a great time. And I know that was very harsh things to say harsh history, but it's very real. This is the history of photography. Shirley cards, which is technology that every photographer needs to use only updated... Kodak only updated the color balance to include Brown and like tans and other skin tones other than white, because furniture and chocolate companies were like we can't use this that well to photograph our products like do you mind adding like different chocolate tones? So humanity was always trying to be present with photography and unfortunately it was always dismissed. And so to bring it back around to what we were talking about, After photographing the George Floyd stuff, I had two opportunities that came up. Skillshare was asking me to teach a class about whatever I wanted to talk about, which ended up becoming The Social Ethics of Photography, and how we can photograph communities and places different from our own. And also, I was done working at my job. And so I remember, I reached out to Kate, like, hey, I need help with my Skillshare class. Because originally, like, I just say, Kate with developing my TEDx, so I knew she knew how my mind works. She was such a trusted ally, because she never tried to censor what I was trying to say. Instead trying to figure out how to best package it to be the most digestible content. And I remember our first call, it was like, oh, yeah, this is a Skillshare idea I want to do. But, honestly, first, I just need to vent, I want to get the fuck out of my job, because I'm so over this. And so that was when she was like, Well, it seems like you got a handle on the class. But have you thought about quitting your job and becoming a full time photographer? And I was like, is that the decision to make when you are in a middle of a pandemic? But I'm also a person of perseverance and risk. So I said, Okay, what's the best plan, and this is where investing in yourself as a business person, while having the spirit of an artist of taking risks can come together and marry with one another.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
Can we I just want to say, like, the level of wisdom, and your articulation of your thoughts is just so powerful. And one moment that I one thought that I had a moment ago is like, as you're talking about your experience, you know, photographing in the protests in the, you know, white men just like telling you to move and all of the anger that came and like, that's such we had sort of visceral, visceral, and, you know, angry response to it, and you process real quick, and like, within a couple of couple of weeks, you were like, I'm gonna fucking teach on this.
Eva Woolridge
Yeah.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
I'm going to teach on this, this is the first opportunity for me to really teach to be a Skillshare, this large prep platform is this thing that I know is going to be so important for others to be hearing about in this moment, and all moments and, uh, I just am continually impressed with you. But I'm trying to also highlight that you're always turning it around into, like, How can my experience really be furthered for other people to understand and learn from it? And you do that with such incredible generosity.
Eva Woolridge
It feels really good to hear because again, as I mentioned, I'm like, really trying to figure out the balance. But it's true, I'm like, I don't want an opportunity to be wasted if it can help improve. I'm just so tired of like, things that we unfortunately have to accept, because that's the day to day reality that we have. And I'm not a confrontational person I like I like my education, or my teaching can can be in a safe space where people can feel like, they can receive the message, and not feel personally attacked by the message. So whenever I teach a photography class, or like a class that I taught all about the social responsibility of photography, my goal is just to help make it a little bit easier to navigate the art world, in a business setting. Like my whole concept of competing with each other, right? That was a feeling I didn't like about myself, but I had for a long time. I even said there was another photographer, I was like, oh, it's like we're competing. He was like, we're not competing. It was a process that was in my head that is so natural. It's because we live in this like capitalistic structure as if there's not enough pieces of the pie. When there is, there is enough pieces of the pie. We don't have to take on every job that's offered to us. If there's a Pride job that is focused, more specifically on trans identity, I'm not going to take that job. I'm not a trans woman. There are extremely talented artists of that community and of that identity that can absolutely take that job and I will be absolutely okay, we can both thrive together. And so maybe it's a little spiritual concept to maybe it's me not liking to be confrontational, but either way, whatever people can gain from it. That will make it a little less angry or negative and more like how can we help each other? That's my goal. Because there's no way, as a photographer, you can make it. If you do not have a network of photographers that will vouch for you. No one wants to work with a dickhead, just straight up.
Scott Robson
True story, that is true for every industry, right?
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
And yet there are so many.
Scott Robson
So many, they are everywhere right.
Eva Woolridge
Dickhead is genderless, let me be clear. No one wants to work with someone who has an attitude like, people want team players.
Scott Robson
Yeah, exactly. Well, I had a quick question about sort of, and I think you sort of touched on it a little bit, which is that I think in all businesses, we run into this the ethical dilemma of whether to work with a certain client or on a certain project. And I'd imagine that that presents itself in a very specific way, as a photographer. What has been your experience in choosing projects that align ethically for you?
Eva Woolridge
It's especially so difficult to right now, because we are in such a new wave of corporations, there's a spotlight or magnifying glass on them to make the right decisions as there should be. I'm a pretty open minded person. So anything that really vouches for the well being of another person, I'm down for. If it's a product, sure, like a photograph a product, as long as they don't have like dark history. I'm not gonna do like a tobacco, I'm not going to do anything that takes advantage of youth or anything of that nature. I think it more so goes into am I the appropriate person to photograph this event. And I'm a pretty self aware person where I won't do one if I'm not appropriate for it. That doesn't mean like technique wise, like, like I photographed WWE. I'm not a wrestler, but I am a qualified person to photograph something. But what was different is if it's Pride, they should be responsible to get someone who is of the Queer community. And that's for any corporation. And I also think they should look at the statistics like how many qualified Black female photographers are there? A lot. How many are on your roster? Very little. So that's my challenge for them. And I'm unapologetic of how I view it. That's how I got the next jobs that I got during the pandemic. I was on a podcast that talks about what it was like being a black photographer, photographing these protests, everything I'm saying to you guys, I said to them, and that led to opportunities talking to different universities. And that led to that same person that put me on to their job, James, ending up recommending me for Peloton and other commercial jobs. So the biggest goal is to be the most authentic person and the right jobs are will come to you. Because you're being outright on what you care about what is important to you. And you're challenging the people that are in positions to make these decisions and these hires to think a little bit bigger. To add more people to the roster. You don't need these giant databases of POC photographers and randomly selecting one. Build actual relationships with these artists and these photographers and you will see why their gaze is so different, why their storytelling is so unique, and why mainstream work is taking, is evolving to include the stories that have not had the time of day for generations.
Scott Robson
Yeah, I just feel like the way that photography and artistry is working with these larger businesses and corporations, I feel like it's shifting because I don't feel like that conversation was really happening. Up until I would say even maybe 2020. I feel like that's something that is new and a certain conscientiousness and deliberateness and inclusivity of including people's experiences who are the makers behind these partnerships. And I think that also like being in that conversation, hopefully you're just attracting others who want to be in that conversation as well.
Eva Woolridge
Yeah. And I like again, I don't want people to feel like well, if I'm a white man that I don't deserve to photograph ever again. And then that's not true. There are so many narratives like Why are you limiting yourself as the experiences you've had as an individual? There are so many spaces that you can explore in your own identity, just like there's so many stories of my identity that I can share. And I have to say, the subjects notice if you can connect with them or not, if you are a person of their community or not. When I was 26, I went to New Orleans and photographed people of New Orleans, and they could tell, though I am Black and I was down with the get down. And I was jazzy and like all of that stuff. They could tell that I was an outsider. And I was photographing them. And they're like, where's this going? I'm tired of people coming into our area and just photographing us and not getting anything in return. The subjects are aware, they are expressing themselves. And just because I look like them, it gives me no right to exploit or take advantage of them. And so not only in my classes, am I telling the people, if you do happen to photograph outside of your community, what can you do to help support the community photographed? Giving prints is a simple way for people to feel honored in the project that you gave, you can donate some of the percentages of those to that community photographed, you can not sell it and just share these experiences that you've had talking and highlighting about those personal people. There are a number of ways to give back. But we have to stop thinking as photographers that we have every right to capture the people that we do. Because we don't, it's a give and take exchange of energy.
Scott Robson
Yeah absolutely. And I think that, you know, I went to, we talked about this before the call, I went to art school, I'm an art school kid, there in Brooklyn. And, you know, I found that there really can be this tension for artists, between who we want to be, what we want our projects to look like, the experience of having those projects be executed. And then also like what we need also as freelancers or working in an agency, or maybe we own our own agency. And you know, I was curious for you like what does that overlap between artist and entrepreneur look like for you in action? When you have these moments of tension between? Am I the right person for this?
Eva Woolridge
Well, I think, again, not leading with so much ego of like, I'm an artist, I deserve every like, right to express every version of my thoughts ever created. Right? Which, Scott, not saying you.. but it can happen.
Scott Robson
We all know those folks. Yeah. (laughter)
Eva Woolridge
But at the same time, like it's, it's, it's not easy being a full time photographer. As like Kate can mention, I struggled a lot trying to figure out what was the right direction for me, and I don't get all of my income from just photography. A lot of it comes from public speaking, a lot of it comes from education. And then there's the commercial photography route, which gives the biggest chunk of checks. But I don't think at all I'm selling my soul to it. It comes with this challenges like it can be very nerve wracking, not knowing when your next check is going to come. And that's when kind of the spirituality gets intertwined, which is like, we can be at peace and more money will always come. If you knew the mantras that I tell myself. (all laugh) A great one I want to share is, "Show me how good I can get."
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
Oh, my. Oh my god!
Scott Robson
I want to get that tattoed on my upper back.
Eva Woolridge
I know! Show me how good it can get. Just easy, that just take all the weight of responsibility. Universe got it. I'll make sure I don't order Seamless every day. But at the same time.
Scott Robson
It's so hard not to.
Eva Woolridge
I know, it's like so hard not to. I don't know what's going on. But does that help answer your question? I know I kind of went on a tangent.
Scott Robson
No, it absolutely does. Because, like you said before that I think that we if we're coming from a place of lack, you know, if we're coming from a place of there's never enough, we're going to feel this pressure to say yes to things that are going to betray what's important to us. And I think that as the intersection between artists and business person, entrepreneur is, it can be a really, really difficult one to, to navigate. And so I think that you navigate it clearly really, really well. And a lot of it feels very intuitive to me. And it also feels like you have a very, very settled sense of what feels right and what does not feel right.
Eva Woolridge
It's true. And I think there I also like to lead with, like, most places have good intentions. I like to believe that it's like good intentions first versus, you know, they're the man and they're going to screw everyone over. Like I like to, you know, yes, we're all trying to get a check. But at the same time, it's like, I like the idea that I work for something that will give me a new experience or put me in a space that I never been in and I want to see what it's like. And if it's not cool, then it won't work for that company again. That's cool. That's fine. There are some artists that feel like they're quote unquote too good or beyond doing commercial stuff. And that's completely fine. That's their arena they want to do. I know that I learned so much about the techniques of photography working in those commercial spaces because I never went to art school. I didn't go to photography school so I have access to digital technicians that I wouldn't have met or wouldn't have known who on the job teach me how to fucking use a camera. The job I was just at, I was like So how do you, how do you reformat? Like I'm not, I'm not ashamed anymore that I don't know all this stuff because I got exactly where I am from my personality, my creativity, my vision, and in just the joy of creating and seeing where that can take me and having intentions of where I want to go.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
I want to know what that is. Where do you want to go?
Eva Woolridge
Well, I directed my first documentary this past year on the history and influence of Black Birth-workers of the United States. Me and two other Black Queer woman lived in a van this past September, and traveled across country interviewing Black doulas, midwives, mothers that have experience different happenings in the hospital settings, and how legislation has evolved to exclude these natural practices. And it's a very heartfelt movie that talks about how women aren't given the confidence that they can birth. They have the emotional and physical and mental support to do it successfully. It doesn't have to be in a hospital setting. I am a full science believer just to be clear. At the same time, I am a big believer of the comfort and well being of birthers. And that there doesn't have to be just the the quote unquote Western science methods to lead a successful birth. Ideally, I want this movie to show that there's a combination of Western science and holistic practices that can come together that will just bring more comfort and wellbeing to Birthers. And then also show that Queerness has always existed in birthing, and that nucular family units is an entirely new concept, though it has been around for a number of generations, and that traditionally, Queerness and partnerships have always existed in various different forms, and that the unifying element is birth.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
Can I ask you, did you know that that's what it was going to be when you have the idea of just going back to their original, like how you process your work.
Eva Woolridge
It started when I was on a podcast about, I was on a podcast with a midwife, and it was about reproductive justice. I was listening to her talk about how enslaved women on plantations would control their reproductive organs, using different herbs, using cotton's to block semen if they were raped or assaulted or forced to breed. I was blown away by the method of self preservation that enslaved women had, despite the severity of the conditions they were forced to be in. It lit a fire. And originally, I was itching to like leave New York for a bit so it was originally going to be a solo van trip with my cat across the country. (all laugh) He's sleeping on my bed right now.
Scott Robson
But if you want to make that documentary, too, I would absolutely watch it.
Eva Woolridge
Right? We don't have to do what is that movie Wild where that guy like died. He was by himself. It doesn't have to be like that. But I was telling my friend Brittany Brock, we ran into each other at the Black Trans March in Brooklyn in like July. And she was telling me how much he loves my Size of a Grapefruit series. I wanted to interview her separately see if I can expand on that series. But she had a very similar reproductive health experience. I ended up running into her again at the allergist where I told her about this idea of going cross country. And she was like, That's so crazy, I have a master's degree that focuses on antebellum women's health. And I was like What the fuck?
Scott Robson
That is so amazingly specific
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
I just love it that all comes together. I mean, this is like such a perfect moment. Okay, so really wildly specific.
Eva Woolridge
And so I was like, well, we have to work together somehow like and so she was down to be the Director of Research for this movie. And my girl Britney, who is like an extremely close friend now, especially after the trip, told so many people about this project. Which is not ideal sometimes but at the same time, I had to learn that if you want to get something done, you have to tell people. And that is another big tip, you have to not be afraid to tell people about your projects. And so our tag team group ended up really building momentum so quickly and we took off September 1 and got back on the 22nd, I think. It was supposed to be longer. But once we were done production, we were in Utah, we almost froze to death and we're like, Fuck this, we're just going to drive straight. We got to Airbnb in Nebraska and then after Nebraska, we just made a decision to do an 19-hour drive straight across. And I will ever do that again. Because that was scary to mentally...not a good idea, but um.
Eva Woolridge
That's a lot. I've done a 19 hour drive. You do it once and then you're like, I'm never doing that again.
Eva Woolridge
And you're like, that was not a good idea. Glad I'm alive.
Eva Woolridge
It's really scary where your mind goes, I was like, three in the morning, screaming the Kendrick Lamar Black Panther album while everyone's passed out and I was like Stay awake. I was like screaming DNA and like all this stuff, Beyonce, just try Linkin Park. Anything that would just like...
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
All the windows open.
Eva Woolridge
Yeah, it was so scary.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
It is scary. No. So you know, PSA: don't do a 19-hour road trip across the country. So I want to share though with our listeners that this is still happening, right? You are still in production for it. You are actively fundraising for it as well. And so they can find out about that. We'll drop a link so that you can find out how to support it on IFundWomen site. Right? Is that correct? Well, I learned so much from you every time we talk, truly. And I know that our listeners are learning a lot from you. So thank you.
Scott Robson
Thank you very much.
Eva Woolridge
And if anyone wants to follow me @ewphotos1 is my handle. My website is ew.photos. And you guys can check out the unofficial trailer of the Black Birth-workers documentary (not the official title) on my Instagram. And please share and donate please, please, please. Our goal is 50k but we would love 100. Like why limit yourself? You know?
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
Yeah, we're gonna link the heck out of all of that. first of all. This is such an important documentary to get out into the world. Thank you for all your incredible work and everything that you do. We just adore you.
Eva Woolridge
Thanks so much.
Scott Robson
We really, really do.
Eva Woolridge
Thank you Scott. (music)
Scott Robson
Hey, Kate, so that was Eva, Wow.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
I loved this conversation with her. It was particularly fun, you know, just thinking back to the beginning of the episode, it was so great to get her view into her artistic process. You know, I work with a lot of creatives, you are a creative, you know, you work with a lot of people. And I always remind my entrepreneur clients that they are creatives too. And it was just such a great reminder from an artist, that we don't need to know what we're making before we make it. It can reveal itself as time goes on. And that was a really great joy to hear her process.
Scott Robson
So one of the things that really resonated with me about that specifically it was that I feel like that's such a great metaphor for how a lot of us run our businesses, right where there is this element of improvisation to our businesses and how they evolve. And that we don't always need to know where we're going, we just need to have this feeling that you know what, this feels like a forward movement to me. And so I'm going to move into this space, and then I'm going to sort of figure it out. And I think that that's really powerful, that self trust that she has, that she knows that there's going to be some deep meaning that's going to come out of that.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
Absolutely. It's really great to hear that, you know, we're all inspired by the works of art around us and to know that we can give ourselves that same creative freedom of exploration. It's, it's fantastic to have that reminder.
Scott Robson
Yeah, it really really is, you know, if those listening haven't gone to her website yet, I recommend that you do because The Size of a Grapefruit series, I mentioned how much I love it. It really is a beautiful, beautiful series. And when she was talking about the trauma that she underwent, that inspired her to create that series... that for me was incredibly powerful. That's not something that you hear every day somebody talking so openly. But for Eva to be able to open up like that I really appreciated it. And frankly, I think that this photography is just incredibly powerful. I really encourage everybody to check her work out.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
You I definitely check out The Size of a Grapefruit and her TEDx talk, because she really does paint the picture of what that whole experience is. And, you know, I really appreciated the conversation also about how the sharing of her story, in some instances can be overwhelming, right? Like it was an overwhelming experience to get other people's feedback on her story and feedback on what it meant to them. I think that that was, I have to admit, like, surprising to hear because she is so open, and she does so freely share. But it sat with me how, you know, you have to listen to yourself and ask, is this furthering or is this interrupting or distracting from my own healing by being so open with it, and I just really appreciated that perspective. I'm somebody who draws a lot from my own stories and experiences in my work. And I think that that's a vital question to be asking.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
Yeah, like, how much of yourself do you give over for public consumption? And I think that, especially in the age for a lot of business people, solopreneurs, who even as a, as a founder of your business, there's there there's a tension in the line of how much do you want to keep for yourself, and it's sacred for you, and how much is helpful to share in a way that would connect with people. And I really appreciated her struggle in not being able to really name that line, because I think that it does change depending on the thing you're talking about. And it's not a hard and fast rule.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
Absolutely. And we're constantly healing, right. So it's not only it's not a rule, but you're in different places in your healing journey. And what might have been okay for you five years ago, or five years from now might not be okay at this moment. So I just so appreciated her language of coming back to yourself and really being clear about what you need. So generous is the word that I come up with for her all the time, because it's just such a smart and thoughtful perspective that she brings to the conversation.
Scott Robson
Totally, totally. I agree. The other thing that as far as the takeaway from this episode, you know, when I when I was thinking back on the episode about things that stuck out, there were a few things that really stood out for me. One of them though, was when she was talking about when she was shooting the Black Lives Matters protests, Breanna Taylor and George Floyd and how she was able to process the micro aggressions of white photographers so quickly, because she, as a Black person, is unfortunately very adept and skilled at having to process that so quickly, because of how often she's been exposed to it. And what struck me is that as a white person, I was, you know, so upset. And you can hear it in the episode, like, I'm really pissed off that happened to you. I like it, like, what the hell? And she was like, Yep, no, like, processed it move moves past it, because I needed to be in that moment, I needed to connect with what was happening. And I was like, I don't know if I would have been able to do that.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
Yeah. And you know, I so appreciated our conversation you and I asked right after that call, or right after our recording with Eva, because you brought that up, you said, I don't know if I would have been able to process it. And I realized, you said you Scott said, I realized, Oh, she's had to process this so much. right. This is something that she is really adept at. And I've been thinking on that perspective, since you said it. And, you know, it made me realize also, I call Eva an educator as much as she is an artist and it makes me realize, oh, you know, we do once again, we rely so much on our Black community members to educate us on things that I wish we had, you know, had more awareness around and I, I realized, oh, gosh, you know, as a white person myself, we need to be picking up that mantle and furthering that message as well. So, yeah, it was it was very eye opening.
Scott Robson
I agree. And the burden so often of the time is on the Black community to teach the white community and it shouldn't be. It should be our burden to learn and to teach each other. And so I hope that that part of the conversation and frankly us talking about it right now helps to open it up for some people.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
Yeah, yeah, that is definitely the hope. You know, later on in the episode, she talks about the ethics of and this is something she teaches on as well, right? The ethics of photography and how to be responsible as a photographer, and I just loved the conversation around integrating her ethics into her practices and teaching others to do the same. One of the things I've been thinking about so much is how do the simple actions in my own business or in the businesses that I support people to build, how do those actions further some exploitative practices, some harming practices, and how can we make adjustments to be more supportive? And you know, she was really able to offer that photographer perspective, and I would love to be able to take that same lens and really apply it to my own business and the businesses that I support.
Scott Robson
Yeah, me too. Me too. I mean, the lens that she has for looking at herself in her work, and also herself as an artist and a business person, I think that it's, it's so easily transferable to so many of us, you know? As I was saying, like, as an art school kid, you know, I went through this process, I didn't go into being full time artist, that was not my track. I was more in the design space. But I have a lot of friends who became painters and photographers. And, you know, and what's what struck me though is is how, for artists, they're in that space where you can't have a business that doesn't completely reflect what you're passionate about and what feels true for you. Because that is what you're producing from. And I think that a lot of businesses you can dial it in, it can be quote, unquote, just a job that you clock in, you clock out. It's not really something that you can do as an artist. There are some businesses where that passion, and that connection is alive. And well, though, and I was talking to you about it, I feel like Susie Sarich of Suzie Cakes as ebing one of those people like this is born from her passion. Right. I think it's just another challenge for artists-entrepreneurs, that it's very unique to them. And that really struck me as being part of that process of having to run a business that's unique.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
Yes, I agree. And Eva really does a beautiful job of talking about that balance that I think that she's had to strike and continues to strike and ways that she's figured out how to do it. It is a really unique consideration for our artists because you feel so close to the things that you're creating.
Scott Robson
Yeah. 100% Yeah. So that's why I'm so glad that we had Eva on and somebody from this space on. But you know, most I'm so glad that we had Eva on because she did such a great job of talking about that and explaining it to us. And thank you so much for introducing her to me, and in turn introducing her to all of our listeners. She really was a treat.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
Yes, she was. I want to remind everybody to go and fund the Black Birth-workers documentary. This is an ongoing campaign and she's doing great on her fundraising. But it is a great time to be supporting this project. And while it happens to be Pride month while we're releasing this episode, we want to encourage you to always support our Queer artists and entrepreneurs all year round. So go ahead and head on over to the Black Birth-workers documentary fundraising link and support them.
Scott Robson
Sounds good.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas
Yeah,
Scott Robson
On my way.