Episode 9: Sybil Grieb, Digital Marketing Expert
Founder of 100 Hats and SVP of Brand Partnerships at Whaler
SPEAKERS
Kate Jaeger-Thomas, Scott Robson, Sybil Grieb
Intro
Welcome to Less than Likely a podcast featuring honest behind the scenes stories of real entrepreneurs and thir less than likely journeys in creating successful businesses. Kate and Scott chat with founders from all industries and stages in business development to bring you the real, the brave and the messy of building something larger than yourself while being human.
Scott Robson 00:00
Hey, Kate.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas 00:00
Hey, Scott. I'm so excited.
Scott Robson 00:02
I'm so excited. We have a really great episode here for folks.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas 00:06
Yeah,
Scott Robson 00:07
It is our first expert episode, which I'm really excited about. It's something that you and I have been wanting to do for a long time.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas 00:13
Yes. I mean, we absolutely are loving the conversations with all of our entrepreneurs talking about their experiences building and growing their businesses. But we also as business coaches ourselves to a lot of entrepreneurs, we know that there are big questions out there that we wanted to be sure to get some experts on to answer some of those questions around all the different things that we come in contact with as business owners, so... enter Sybil.
Scott Robson 00:42
Yes, we're doing our first deep dive with an expert with Sybil Grieb. She is a digital strategist focused on influencer marketing. So if you've ever wanted to know about influencer marketing for your business, this is exactly the right place where you want to be. And she's created 100 Hats, her own digital marketing agency and is now the SVP of brand partnerships and web three innovation at the award winning creator marketing company Whalar.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas 01:04
Yes. And so Whalar began as an influencer marketing agency, and evolved to become a full service creator commerce company. They've won three Cannes Lions for their brand work with creators and were just awarded Ad Weeks Creator Agency of the Year. And what I'm so excited about is that Sybil can speak to the full trajectory, I think, of marketing for businesses at all stages at all sizes, from the first couple of years to well into an established brand and beyond. So we really get to all of that. I'm really glad to have her on here today.
Scott Robson 01:44
Yeah, me too. I'm so excited. I think this is going to be a great deep dive for everyone. So without further ado, here is Sybil Greib.
Sybil Grieb 01:51
Welcome to Less than Likely, a podcast featuring honest behind the scenes stories of real entrepreneurs and thier less than likely journeys towards creating successful businesses. Kate and Scott chat with founders from all industries and stages in business development to bring you the real, the brave and the messy of building something larger than yourself while being human.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas 02:15
How are you doin?
Sybil Grieb 02:20
Oh, good.
Scott Robson 02:21
Sybil, thank you so much for coming on. We're really excited to have you as our first expert guest. Thanks so much for being our guinea pig on this. We're really excited to have you on.
Sybil Grieb 02:30
I'm honored. I love it.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas 02:31
But even though this is a slightly different episode than what our typical ones are, we always want to start our conversations with this question. So Sybil, what is it that makes you or your business less than likely?
Sybil Grieb 02:46
Oh, so I was a less than likely entrepreneur, because I swore I would never do that. I was 100% like, that's a terrible idea. I want a steady paycheck. But I was like no health care, no safety net, no, nothing like that's absolutely terrifying. I would never do that. And so I had been Head of Influencer Marketing at Edelman, had left there with another offer that kind of gave me the courage to jump and wanted to take time off in between, though. And so I kind of put them on hold. And somebody reached out to me and said, Hey, I have this client, you should take them on. And I was like, oh, no, no, that's not, I'm not a consultant. That's not something I do. And they were like, no, no, you'd be perfect for them. And it was like, well, I'll have a conversation with them. And I will figure out who the right person is. And then I'll introduce them to that person. And then, of course, I have a conversation with them. I get so excited about what they're building and what they're doing. And I'm like, Oh, you need to meet this person. And this person, we should do this, and this and this. And so then I like accidentally had a client, but it was like, I'm just gonna do this one thing like it just this one little thing. And then I was speaking somewhere about influencer marketing, and somebody else came on board. And they were like, I would really love to work with you. And again, I was kind of like, oh, but this isn't what I actually do. But I'll do this one other thing view on keeping the other company on hold. And I ended up paying my rent the first month. And I was like, well, that that was weird. I mean, also, it just shows that like, I don't know how to take a vacation. (all laugh) I was like. I'll take three months off, I went to Mexico for like three days, came back and like accidentally started a company. And so yes, it just kind of kept going like that. I think I got really lucky and 100% was word of mouth or a speaking engagement or something like that.
Scott Robson 04:45
Yeah. And I'm wondering and curious, how did the name 100 Hats end up coming into being because when I think of that, I think of all of the hats that entrepreneurs have to wear at the same time. But knowing a little bit about your history, I know there's there's more to it than that for you.
Sybil Grieb 05:00
Yeah, when I was leaving Edelman, I decided I was like, I'm going to do all the things that I said I was going to do and have never gotten around to because I'm working crazy hours. One of those things was my best friend had her baby at 25 weeks instead of 40. And so he was in the NICU at Stanford. And he was in an incubator for about nine months. And they had to also wear these like little hats to keep them warm. And the hats have to be like handmade and they had to be special material and special washing and all these sort of things. And so when I first resigned, I was like, because I cannot do anything in a small way I started 100 Hats project, and it was I was gonna make 100. Like, just make five, like make five. No, I'm gonna make 100 of these teeny little preemie baby hats. So I started the 100 Hats project, I'm enlisting like my mom, and like all the ladies from the church, and I'm like, Alright, we're gonna do this. And then COVID hit. And simultaneously, I was accidentally consulting, and I needed the business name. And I was originally going to call it the accidental consultant, because that's just funny to me. But
Scott Robson 06:16
That's the name of your memoir, by the way, that's not the name of your business.
Sybil Grieb 06:20
Yeah, really it's an accident. But then I thought it was like, I want something more broad. I was like, Oh, 100 hats. My favorite clients are the ones that like were building something new, or they're just launching a brand. For whatever reason, I'm drawn to that, like chaos days, where you have to wear 100 different hats. And you've got to be like building the plane as you're flying it. So for me, that was so exciting. And the name just ended up fitting. And in retrospect, it looks like Oh, I'm so smart. No, like, I just everybody's like, You're so brave for starting your own company. And I'm like, you know, it's the whole idea of like jumping off the cliff and taking this huge leap of faith. And I was like, I was like, I had my back to the cliff. And I was like, gesturing wildly, and I fell off and I grew wings, like it just was super accidental there.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas 07:11
I love that story. I feel like it's so relatable, because a lot of the people that I work with also aren't like, oh, I went in knowing exactly what was going to happen. Like, sometimes it's accidental. Sometimes you have a general idea. I love the connection also to the project, which is so close to your heart, and so clearly speaks to who you are as well, right? That you can't do anything without going big. And it's, it's just really a beautiful story. I'm so glad you shared it.
Scott Robson 07:38
Yeah, it really is. And when it comes to 100 Hats, how long overall was it running for? And now that you have the benefit of hindsight, how do you feel like that overall experience was for you?
Sybil Grieb 07:48
So two and a half years, and I feel like I was super lucky that year one, I did six figures, year two, I doubled it. And I mean, like low six figures and nothing to, you know, really write home. But it was just this thing of like this is actually really working and bringing in really interesting clients. And yet I feel like about two years in there started to be this pivotal moment where I realized that what I loved doing most was the strategy phase. What I love doing the most was working with these brand new companies. Guess who has very little money, brand new companies. But then also part of my goal, too, is like, I don't want my clients to be dependent on me. I wanted to help them get off the ground, I was happy to train their internal team, I was happy to pass them off to another agency or whatever. But I loved being that strategist in the early days. What that means, though, is that you are always having to bring in new clients. I just got really lucky that I did two speaking engagements right before COVID. And that's where I basically got almost all of my clients from that. And then just from word of mouth, everybody I've worked with in the industry before was like oh, you need influencer marketing. Go talk to Sybil. And at the two year mark, almost to the day, it was interesting. I had a retainer client that paid all of my bills and what they needed me for in the beginning, I'd completed and they no longer needed that piece. And they wanted to keep me on because they felt like oh, there's all these other things you can do. And I got to the point I was like, Okay, you actually need a salesperson to be selling on behalf of your business, not a strategist who's building you know, the behind the scenes pieces. So we parted very amicably. I was like you cannot, I'm not allowing you to pay me anymore. I love you. But it was kind of this pivotal moment where I was like, Huh, that's so funny. Like, I'm walking away from the retainer type of clients in a lot of these cases and is this what I really want to do like, and is this scalable? So I've hired a full time person. I had a bunch of different people that I was tapping part time. And after two years of just growth, growth, pretty steady, not 100% steady, but really fairly even. There was a moment where there was like this little moment of quiet and my employee was busy, but I could actually get free for a minute. And I was like, I could worry about this, I could lean into marketing. Or I could go to Costa Rica. And I chose Costa Rica. And I had this like, amazing epiphany that I didn't act on exactly. Like maybe it's the beginning of an epiphany of, I can't scale the piece that I love the most by myself. But what I needed at that point was a partner. I like these pieces but if we're going to have retainer clients, we need another piece of that business. And what does that look like? I was trying to kind of do all the things and wear 100 hats. And I think my heart just wasn't in it as much. And I kept thinking like, oh, but it should be because it's my business. And at the same time, we got an RFP that was just too big. So request for proposal that like I would have had to hire up to complete this. And I was like, it's going to be so expensive to hire. And I just don't have the infrastructure. And at the same time, for over a year, I've been talking to a company Whalar that is award winning influencer marketing agency. And I met Neil Wallar, who's one of the co founders. And I really had liked him. And I was like, at some point, I knew I want to work for this person. But the timing hadn't been quite right. And as soon as that RFP came in, I really looked at what Whalar had to offer. And the fact that I could probably bring this client over to Whalar, have that full infrastructure. And the thing that really sold me was the other co founder, James Street is running an innovation hub there. And so it's Web3. And it's all of these different things having to do with the metaverse and NFT's and crypto. And as scary as I think some of these things are, I'm also very intrigued. And so for me, that was the moment there wasn't even a second thought. It was like the second they said Innovation Hub. I was like that's it I'm in. And it was really because I realized I needed to run my own business because I needed to lean really into the strategy piece of everything. But now I really wanted to get back to like, what is that forefront of everything that's about to happen. So that opportunity for me was going to Whalar and it's interesting because...bless the company that had made me the offer when I was still at Edelman because they had come back a second time and had made me another offer and their offer was work for us part time 50% for us, run your company 50% but build up our influencer team. And so I had this really interesting choice of keep your company ...and there's some pride to that too. You know, you don't want to close down your own company like that just feels like ugh. And I just I didn't choose it because I thought I'm taking the scarier choice by far. But I'm taking the one where my god like how much will I have learned in a year because I'm having to live in what's going on with NFT's, with the metaverse, crypto... build strategy around that. That's so exciting. And it wasn't even a question.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas 13:19
I was just wanted to comment on your presence of mind and thoughtfulness. Right, there's so many moments when you could have been kind of I use the word like bewitched by the next thing, right. So that moment of the retainer client coming in and giving you the next phase and you saying well, I could do this. And then the different offers that you have going on you were just really able to stay with what I want to do, what am I great at? And what am I interested in? I think that's so easy to get lost in what does growth look like, especially as a business owner. And you challenged that very proactively to say what is growth for me, not necessarily growth for my business. And I just love that you had that presence of mind to really stay with what you needed.
Scott Robson 14:09
Absolutely. I mean, talk about having the big picture in mind, which I think is amazing. And I think it's really hard to do. You know, it's like any relationship that you have. You've put in so much time into it. It's it's that point of what is best for me right now. And I think that is particularly hard for business owners. And I just think that you put it in such perspective. What I'm curious about for you, though, is what lessons did you bring with you from 100 hat and that you see yourself applying at Whalar and also if you could give us a little bit of background about actually what you're doing there at Whalar.
Sybil Grieb 14:41
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. One of the things that I definitely feel like I learned running my own company was I've usually run teams at different companies and so every time you want to hire somebody, it's always like well put together a business case and you're like... business case? I'm gonna lose my mind if I don't get another person. And so right In your own company, you're like, oh, yeah, what is the business case, like, because it's like my rent is on the line. And like the cats are not bringing in the pet rent. So like, we got to figure that out. So I think just like really getting closer to truly running a P&L, and also really, really looking at when to hire, what level because that is the most important piece. And so that was also something where I realized with my business, it was great that second year, just having me and a junior person. But the next phase, I needed somebody more senior, that's a huge investment. So I think looking at building a team, even within another company, I think I look at very differently. Now. The other thing is just how do we build this to sustain not knowing exactly what's coming down the pipe? How do we build something that's strong foundation, no matter what direction we decide to slightly pivot on?
Kate Jaeger-Thomas 16:02
That's an incredible insight for you to bring to where you're going, right? Like I've been in a staff position and gone, I want to hire somebody, please, can we do it? It's just amazing to have the business acumen right now, in that place. Now that you also have run your own company, I'm hoping that you can help us understand some of the our listeners are probably in their first couple of years or even in their first year. What do the earliest stages of marketing look like for businesses in their first year? And speaking to that idea of building a foundation, when you don't know necessarily where you're going to go, what you were just talking about?
Sybil Grieb 16:43
Yeah, well, and it definitely varies by company and by vertical. Like, obviously, if you have a product, it's a lot easier to, you know, we have a widget, this is our widget, this is what our widget does. I think in the services business, it's a little bit more complicated, especially if you come by it accidentally and are like I do all the things. Let's see what things you need.
Scott Robson 17:02
Which is most people who own a services based business in their first year, by the way, right?
Sybil Grieb 17:07
Exactly. So I mean, I think so on the services side, I would say well, on every side, honestly, like year one for me, it was finding my team, it was figuring out like, Yeah, I'm a solopreneur. But like, wink, wink, nudge nudge, like, Scott was my work coach, like, I could not have done it without, you know, I joke that I would show up to meetings with Scott and be like, Okay, here's the thing. There's all these carts, and there's all these horses, and I don't know what goes where and literally, like, line them up for me. And then I would leave being like, oh, okay, great, got the things, because you need that person that's gonna pull you back and up out of it so that you can see the forest for the trees. So that's one thing like the the coaching aspect, you can talk to all your friends. And that's great. And they're always going to be supportive, which is wonderful. But you need that person that's going to push you ask you questions, question your answers, you know, these kinds of things. In a very strategic way. I needed an attorney, I needed back office support and sending out invoices and an accountant and a CPA and, you know, payroll, and all of these things. Like I needed a website designer, all those pieces that you don't see necessarily. And it looks like just me in the front running the show, there's five people back there that I don't need to tap them always. But it took me a year to figure out who they were. So I think that's one side of it. Particularly on the marketing side, the thing I always start with is look at who are your top five competitors that are very similar to what you're doing, who are maybe three to five other brands that you love. They may not be in the same vertical, but they're talking to the same demographic or some of your target audiences or something like that. What is it that you love about them? Really do a deep dive, like before you do anything else, look at their social media channels, look at their website, what are they saying? What are their key messages, what seems to be working for them? What doesn't seem to be resonating as well for them? Really try to learn from other people's work and other people's mistakes. And like, for example, I had an auto client and I was doing kind of a deep dive on their competitors. And you know, BMW. I've driven many BMW, I feel like I know the brand pretty well. But when I started doing more of a deep dive on their social media, I realize it's so interesting, they position their car as if it's a celebrity, as if it's a person. It is one brand that really stuck out that way where it's literally it'll be a BMW on a red carpet, as if it's like a model at an event and it's just a car you know. And I was like, That is fascinating that I hadn't noticed that before. It just there's just things like that. We are kind of like Oh, well that's a really interesting take like how do we want to position this brand? As we start looking at what our competitors are doing, it just really gets you thinking. It also helps you figure out what what are their taglines, that's very easy to see. But what are their key messages behind those taglines? And how are you different? How can you really communicate your offering in a way that speaks to your audience, or most likely audiences? And this is another mistake that I think brands often make, brands of all sizes will make the mistake of like, Oh, we're targeting the male 18 to 34. And you're like, great, that's awesome. Because it's just one type of person, right? And so really diving down on those target audiences? Who are they? really diving down on your competitors. What are they doing what seems to be working? You know, what are the most liked posts? Do they do more video? Do they do more you know, static images? What's working for them? Do they have a tick tock? Do they not? Are they working with influencers? Which influencers? How is that seeming to land with audiences? I always say it's like the first three things are strategy, strategy, strategy, and just the research piece of it.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas 21:08
I think, you know, the research side of it, you're asking, you know, I love these great questions that you've offered, right? How are they positioning themselves? What are their key messages? What are their taglines? How are you different? How are they doing in each moment, right with each piece of marketing that they do. And I think that that's honestly, where a lot of people don't dive in. They just look at all of the message or they look at it and they make assumptions about this is so great. Oh, wow, that's so flashy. But is it landing? Is it hitting? Are they getting the kind of engagement or what other what ever other metrics you might be looking for? Which I am curious about? Like, maybe we get into that? What are the metrics we need to be looking at when we are, you know, assessing other people's marketing and our own? But that's a key question. How are they actually doing with these components? So thank you for drawing that forward.
Scott Robson 22:03
Yeah, absolutely. And the thing that's coming up for me, as I was just thinking about this, too, was, I feel like there's two components to this, right. There's the aspect of doing the research, understanding your market and the competitors that you're working with and their messaging, but then at some point, you've got to be able to move forward. And one of the things that I feel like holds back a lot of people is that they feel like they never have enough information. So they're always waiting for more info, they're always waiting to do more research. And they're almost unwilling to claim their own authority of their own opinion. And I always push people, I'm always like, hey, well, get on your soapbox here. What do you really think about what's wrong in the marketplace right now, what's missing? What your customers need? And almost 100% of the time, they're pretty right on, you know, they've done the research at that point. So they know and they've distilled that down. But I think it's really instilling in people that sense of their own opinion, and their own authority is really critically important to this.
Sybil Grieb 23:04
To that point, so often, people are like, Ah, I don't know, I don't know, there's all these things. There's all these channels, I don't know what's working. Arm yourself with fact, literally make yourself sit down and go through that competitor's Instagram, and write down some of those key messages that you're seeing or those catchphrases or taglines. Screengrab which post is seeing the most likes or the most engagement. Scroll through and see how are people engaging? Like, are they engaging on the topic? Or are they like, nice shorts, you know, and it has like nothing to do with the actual product. You can really go through and do that for even three of your competitors. And you have a much better idea of, okay, I'm armed with this works for them, that works for the other guys. I mean, the one caveat I will give is that a lot of times brands will put paid media to boost certain posts. And so sometimes you'll see like, Oh, this one has a ton of likes. And it may also be that it also had a ton more views.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas 24:05
I have kind of what feels like kind of a stupid question, which is how do you determine who your competitors are? Because, you know, I'm in my first year of business, say, and I want to be in this place in five years, but I'm not there yet. So is it worth it for me to look at this competitor who's like way ahead of the game and maybe in eight years? Or do I start with somebody who's like maybe two or three years ahead of me? How do you determine who your competitors are?
Sybil Grieb 24:32
Yeah, I mean, I say go aspirational for sure. Because that's where you want to get to. They already stumbled and learned in those first years, and they've built something. And now they're kind of like, okay, we've got the wheels turning and we're heading in the direction we want to go. So is I think it's always really beneficial to look at people who are further down the line than where you are. I think you can learn a ton from that. Learn as much as you can. But also don't overwhelm yourself with the feeling that you need to compete at that level. Like, they probably have a marketing person or a marketing team or, you know, they've got influencer marketing on this side, paid media over there, and social media here and they've got, you know, various people running all these pieces. You don't have to boil the ocean, but see, of the pieces that they're doing, what seems to be working. You can just learn so much from that. And I think it is good to look at brands that are similar in scale and size to yours, but I actually would lean more into the aspirational.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas 25:34
Okay, so I've done a bunch of research, right? I've looked at the key messages I've understood. Now I am paying for my, you know, bookkeeping, and my lawyer and all of these different people, and I really don't have a marketing budget. So I need to be doing it on my own at this stage, right? So I'm ready to start putting material out there. Where do you think that it's best to be focusing ourselves and our energies in order to market effectively with that tight marketing budget?
Sybil Grieb 26:08
Yeah. So it's going to vary, but I can give you some buckets that is helpful. So first of all, knowing your audience and knowing, let's say, you know, if it's like 40 and above, guess what, you're probably gonna want to be on Facebook, because that's where they're gonna be. If you know you're looking at like 20 year olds, you're gonna want to be on Tik Tok if you can. Obviously video a lot harder to do, more time consuming, but at least Instagram. So the platform is going to be dictated by the audience that you're trying to reach. If you're looking for a really young audience, like, don't worry, you don't need to be on Facebook. They're like, what's a Facebook. So Google AdWords is also a great place, it's so easy to just test different key messages. Put, like tiny amounts of spend behind things. You know, one of the things you want to do is A/B message testing.
Sybil Grieb 27:06
Okay, let's say you have three different key messages. And you want to see which ones are resonating most. Be able to test it as much as you can in small environments and see like, what our audience is gravitating towards, like what makes people click through more, and just being able to test that a little bit. And then you can play with putting a little bit of paid media to boost the ones that you think are performing best.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas 27:30
I want to be clear, though, that what you're talking about here is really testing using small amounts of dollars, right to test versus to market. Obviously, it's all under the same bucket. But that's not the moment when I'm like putting lots of money into paid marketing at this stage, you're really trying to get answers to questions, what are people going to be responding to? Is that right? And where does my market live and hang out?
Sybil Grieb 27:57
to your point, it's all under the marketing budget. But it's let's learn before we go spend the full amount of our marketing budget, because we have three different messages. We don't want to just put them evenly out there. But if you do those initial tests, and you start to get a feeling of like, okay, wait, this one is really pulling ahead. So let's come up with a couple different versions of this one, or let's tweak these other two and see how they might perform better. And also what's performing better on maybe it's Google AdWords, people are typing in like, what are those key words that are working for you? versus, you know, something else might be working on Instagram, figuring out where is the customer at when they find you?
Scott Robson 28:41
Yeah, that makes so much sense. And I know that for a lot of people getting into paid marketing is a big step, right? That's going to feel maybe a little intimidating and a little complicated. So when do you think someone should start looking into paid marketing as opposed to just doing it on their own and organically growing their followers.
29:01
I mean, I think if you have the budget, and you have the bandwidth, and you know the audience you're going after, and you can put certain goals around it, then start leaning in, like start playing around, start adding more, here and there where you can, where you have the bandwidth. It's not very hard. And also like you can mess it up sort of slightly, and nobody knows, you know, you know, just like put $5 here and like, Oh, that ran for three days instead of one or whatever, it's is fine. Play around with it. You don't have to be an expert in all these things. It's great if you can bring somebody in who knows how to, like really target your paid media.
Scott Robson 29:44
Yeah, you don't have to do this on your own if it feels like too much, either.
Sybil Grieb 29:47
Yeah, you know, you don't have to be a social media expert. You just need to play around, start getting comfortable with it. And then little by little it does start to feel much more comfortable. And, you know, Google AdWords, you know, is pretty, pretty easy. You can learn it in a very, very short amount of time, in you know, an hour, and then play around with it till it feels more comfortable.
Scott Robson 30:10
Yeah, cuz like Google and Facebook and all them, they all have like free courses that you can take explaining all of it.
Sybil Grieb 30:16
Absolutely, like, I'm a nerd. So I took even though like Facebook has their social media manager certifications and things that you can get. But I also think, and this is the biggest thing for entrepreneurs, because I think a lot of us are used to wearing all the hats and actually are pretty good at a lot of different things. And sometimes, you don't have to .Go find a Gen Zer, who like lives and breathes in the social media space. They don't have to be a full time employee, they can create a bunch of content for you. And the other thing I would say with anything social media, biggest advice, batch your work, don't be creating every single day to be posting every single day. Absolutely not. Put a calendar together for the year, figure out like what are the key dates that I want to lean into? Is it my product ties in on like Earth Day is something I want to really do or, you know, it's women's empowerment. And so I want to lean in on this day or that day. And really, you can put together a huge amount of content, if you've planned it in advance, you do it all at once. It doesn't have to be a full time job, it can be Hey, we want you to come in for eight hours once a week and create like a bunch of content or, you know, even once a month and create a certain amount of content. And it's just extremely helpful. And then for the business owner, they can then sit down with that person, look at a bunch of content at once. And the one thing I will say is having a style guide is really helpful. You know, knowing what are your fonts, what are your colors, the more you can arm somebody with that, it makes it a lot easier. Have them put together some templates. Canva is an excellent program for all of this. And it just makes it so easy. You create these templates and then boom, you can just plug things in, and it's much more time effective.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas 32:09
I love that you break it all down. Because I have people who are like, I don't understand why I struggle so hard to post, like it's you know, it's really easy. It's just so fast. Like it just takes a few seconds a day. And I'm like it does not take a few seconds a day. (laugh) And so to hear you talk about all these different components, there's so much associated with it. But it really is easy to kind of like be caught in that lie of Oh, you just throw it up there and off it goes.
Sybil Grieb 32:40
I wish. The other thing is I would say use a program like Later or one of these programs where you can schedule your content in advance. That said, schedule in advance by all means, but check it every day before. This is a big thing... know what's going on in the news, know what's going on, you know, at least like that top tier of pop culture. Because you don't want to be like yay, I can breathe clearly now and then I can't breathe is trending. You always do have to check in. And then just be really cognizant of what's going on socially. So that something that was completely benign yesterday doesn't accidentally trigger the day that it posts. Because we've definitely seen influencers who've done that, and then had to like walk it back. And it's like Sorry, I scheduled it in advance. I wasn't actually there or doing this thing. And it's just a little difficult.
Scott Robson 33:33
Yeah, that's such a good point. And you know, one of the other things too, that I found with people running their own businesses, and they're the faces of them, that you can feel a real pressure to be creating content for your social media that, you know, creates a connection with your audience, right? That's so important. So there's oftentimes this tension that I found between how much do you give away of your personal life? Right? How much is too much? I think it'd be really uncomfortable when you don't necessarily want to be talking about your kids or your spouse. And yet you do want to be showing who you are and, and connecting with your potential clients. So you can create trust, right, and you're warming up that audience. So I'm just curious, how do you navigate that? What would what would you recommend?
Kate Jaeger-Thomas 34:12
Well, and can I also add to it, I mean, I've got two young kids who are 9 and 12. And I hate to say it this way, but I know that when I put my kids out, that's when engagement comes in, right? Like I have a picture of my kids and like people really respond to that. And so I have to ask, like, Is this okay? Is this okay? And obviously, I mean, it's a personal question for everyone as far as that's concerned in your family dynamics, but from a marketing perspective, I have asked that question.
34:45
It is a very personal choice for me. I am super jazz handsy but I'm actually very private. So all of my accounts are private. I don't have a public Instagram. I don't have a public Facebook. And that's just the decision that I made. Now that said, when I was running 100 hats we did have social media accounts. And it's funny because there's one or two times that we actually put my face on something was like, I was speaking somewhere, I think ces or something. And then we did the behind the scenes of who I am. And those ones, absolutely, they got the most views, the most likes, the most engagement by far. But I was like, I've just no need to put my face like everywhere, like I just, it's not me. But I think it can work really well, for entrepreneurs, I think there's definitely people who bring in their whole family dynamic. And sometimes it's the brand evolved because of their family, you know, or these different things like they, they found a need within their own family unit, and then they created this product. I think when it's that that feels more organic to me, then, you know...I mean, like, I'll put my cats on posts all day long. Absolutely, people are gonna engage, you're like, this is my lovely couch, versus this my lovely couch with a pet on it. People do want something that has personality to it. And I think that you can find personality and show personality, without it truly being your face, or your kids or your true life. Like for me, I'm pretty sarcastic. And so, you know, finding that balance of like, how, how sarcastic do I want to be? And how much fun can I have with this and also be buttoned up and professional, it was always a hard balance. I mean, I think you really have to play with that to like, see what you're comfortable with. And then also know that like, you know, what, if I put my family in this post, and I get a bunch more likes, like, it's not worth it to me, like I want to hold back or this is totally aligned with our values. And we want to share that. I mean, it's the whole thing of influencer marketing, like you're showing who you are. What you believe. And people are more trusted than brands. And so knowing that, you want to have a certain amount of personality, even with or without your image.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas 37:19
Can we talk about influencer marketing, because I know that this is like where you really shine and love and take a lot of the people that you've worked with and certainly Whalar is also doing a lot of influencer marketing with you. Can you first tell me what it is?
Sybil Grieb 37:34
Influencer marketing was the old term, it's leaning a little more creator marketing. Creators being the ones who are truly coming up with this incredible content, they're really engaged with their audiences. I think the word influencers a little bit tarnished, just in terms of, you know, it's kind of the shilling out like, Oh, I love this product, repeat, repeat, repeat. But there's always been influencer marketing, whether it was celebrities that were wearing the watch, or, you know, tying in with with these different people. So it's emerged with social media, you have this ability to not only share content much faster, but the ability to follow people that you didn't know before. And one of the things that's happened is, if you look at the trust that people have, trust used to be in government, and it used to be in big business. And that has completely eroded. People used to trust media as well, like all of these things. They're like, now they're at the absolute bottom of the pyramid. And the most trusted sources of information are experts and peers. And so you're seeing with influencer marketing, creator marketing, when it's done, right, you're leveraging a voice who is seen as an expert in the vertical that you are needing them to speak about, but they're also really relatable. And so they're really tapping into those two things. And case in point, I would say, you know, if a car brand tells me like, oh, we make the best cars, our cars are super fun to drive. I'm gonna be yearh, yeah of course, you're gonna say that, like, that's your job. If a friend of mine who's super into cars is like, oh my god, I just got this car, it's awesome, I love it. That resonates with me, because I trust that person and they don't work for the brand. Now, with creators, you have to be careful when you're looking at, you know, potentially hiring somebody, how much of their content are they working for brands versus how much of it is organic and their own content not brand driven. You want to make sure that the vast majority of it there is not these brand relationships and you also want to make sure that they're truly into the brand that they are promoting. You know, when I worked at William Morris Endeavor I brought this offer to this teenager. It was like six figure offer to promote this quick service restaurant they'd like to Instagram posts and like a ridiculous amount of money, and he turned it down. And that was the rough day for me because I was like, you could buy a Tesla, but you're too young to drive and you're turning this down like it was just time. That's exactly what you want them to do. Because he was like, Oh, I don't really like this brand. I like their competitor. And so it was actually perfect, because then I could say, okay, one awesome for sticking to your beliefs. And two, now I can go to the competitor and say, hey, guess what, you know, I have this talent that absolutely loves your brand, and really wants to work with your brand. That's what you're looking to find. A lot of brands would come to me and say, especially the big brands five years ago or so would get their money together and be like, Alright, we're ready to do influencer marketing. Like, can't we get Kim Kardashian? And it was, always like Yes, I mean, you probably can with a certain amount of money. But is that the voice that's going to have the authority, the trustworthiness in that vertical and seem authentic and relatable? One of the campaign's that works really well - and it's like, I do this for a living, but it worked well on me - was, you know, I'd saved a certain amount of money, and I was like, Ah, I need to start investing somewhere. And I don't know how to do it. And it's so much work and research and everything you would look up, it was like, Oh, we have the best rates, and we are the best at investing your money and whatever. And I was just like, Ah, I can't. And then Tim Ferriss had a podcast that was sponsored by Wealthfront. And it was like, first $10,000 managed free. And I was like done, because he is someone who's going to have done a ton of research. Is Wealthfront the very best? Maybe not, but it's going to be one of the top fives because he would not have partnered with them otherwise. And so that to me was like, okay, good enough for him to do a partnership with, good enough for me. If it had been Kim Kardashian, I would have been like that. But then, again, if Tim Ferriss was like, shilling, you know, lipstick that stays on longer, I would be like, what? And then it's really all about finding the right voice, who's having the right conversation with your target audience.
Scott Robson 42:25
That's such a great example, I think of influencer marketing and action that people can really understand. Because I think that there's a lot of misconceptions about what influencer marketing is, what it looks like to work with someone in that industry. And I think that anytime any of us put marketing dollars towards something, we're probably looking to see your return on our investment pretty quickly and something that's measurable. So for someone who's just getting into influencer marketing and looking to explore this, what can they do to set attainable and realistic goals?
Sybil Grieb 42:57
Yeah, you have to figure out what is that case study that you want at the end, and then reverse engineer the campaign.
Scott Robson 43:05
Oh, I really love that. That's great.
Sybil Grieb 43:08
Look at like, you know, if you are a car brand, you need to get people to test drive your car, because chances are, unless they've done that they're not buying. So everybody has the purchase funnel of awareness first, then engagement, then action. Gotta start with the awareness layer. And then maybe different stages of your campaign stage one, maybe just boom, awareness play, let's see what's working what's resonating, then the next one is more like get people engaged and get people liking and following our socials, get them to our website. And then the last being like, get them to purchase. But I think if you really look at what are those end goals that you want the person to do? What success look like, and know that you can't jump all the way to the bottom of that funnel, usually. So what are the steps to get there. And so you want to make sure it's as streamlined as possible that people can do whatever it is that you're hoping that they do. One thing I see brands neglect to do that I think is really important is tell the influencer why you chose them. This is like we saw all of these pieces of content, these three really resonated with us, we want something like this for our brand. Because they're constantly creating all kinds of different things. They're testing and learning too. They're their own brand. And so they may not know why you hired them specifically. This also really helps because it forces you to know why you hired them. And to know that like you might love them as a creator. But if they're not the right person to actually speak your message, if you can't actually see anything they've done in the past that would really be on brand for you, then maybe it's not so much a fit. But also think about creators in different ways because you can leverage a creator for just their artistic ability to create amazing content for you, maybe they don't have a big social reach. And you just want that amazing piece of content and that personality and you know, their ability to engage. But you can also leverage them for their audience as well. Also, you know, a brand kind of has a certain tone of voice. You can leverage influencers, to speak their truth about your brand, to their audience in a way that maybe your brand couldn't. And that I think, is a really powerful place to play as well. I also love giving influencers like, Hey, here's the few of our key messages and pick which one resonates most for you. You want to make sure that they are creating something that is authentic to them, that is on brand for them, otherwise, their audience is also going to be like what this is ridiculous, like you're just shilling at this point, you know. And so just making sure that you've got something that is really on brand for your brand, but it can be a little edgy, it can be in a different voice, like, don't be afraid of that, and leverage that talent and make sure that it's really coming from them as well.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas 46:12
You know what I'm thinking about? Scott, this might be also true for you, but I'm thinking about a lot of the people that I work with, or that I think about in my sphere...and not only are you offering Sybil, the opportunity for us to understand, okay, how can I include influencer marketing in my own strategy, but also, I have people that I work with that might also consider themselves or would aspire to be influencers as well. I mean, it's actually a lot more accessible these days because of the trust in our content creators that we've had the opportunity to get to know them in a new way. So you're giving this perspective of how can I position myself also as an influencer, and perhaps even see myself as an influencer? And what difference does that make about how I position my messaging and strategies that I use and whatnot?
Sybil Grieb 47:03
Absolutely. And I think, you know, it's interesting, I was working with a pharma brand at one point, and they had a product that helps kids get over their cold faster. And they were like, oh, you know, we want to partner with an influencer in this space. And I think they were thinking more like a doctor, a nurse. Great. Absolutely, you can do that. You could also partner with, you know, moms, they're not doctors. But if you partner with a mom who's got like four kids, who's like literally seen it all, been through every cold four times over, and they have used the product and they are like, oh, yeah, I'm just from now on, I give them this. They get over it faster. That mom is such a trusted expert in that space, I would almost say to me, I would look at that. And it would resonate more than a doctor saying it.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas 47:53
100%. I mean, the first place I go with any question is to my local Facebook moms group, like they know everything. The know everything; they have an opinion and they're usually really right. But, you know, you got Dr. Google and you got your local moms group who are going to answer the question about what do you do with this rash? Right? Or how do I get my kids over this cold? But you're, I mean, I think that it's easy for us to think about influencers being the Kim Kardashians or the you know, so far outside of my scope or you know, my budget, certainly. But who am I influenced by? And who are the people that might buy from me? Who are they influenced by? And how do I leverage those kinds of connections?
Sybil Grieb 48:37
Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Well, and I think, you know, it's interesting, because it's like everybody that we're hearing information from, seeing information from, we're picking up on all of this, and even listening to your podcast and the episode that you did for like, the Good Bottle Company. I was like, oh, I need to be better about this. You know, it's not in my GO yet. But I was like, Who else can I do? What else can I do is like, I'm inspired by that. And it's interesting. Today, 40% of the content that people are consuming is created by creators, when we were going through like three TV channels, if you like, wiggled the rabbit ears in a certain direction. And so now there's just all of these amazing rabbit holes that you can jump down and social media. And there's going to be these different experts and these different voices. And I think that's actually such a cool thing. The one thing that I'm hopeful about with social media is that we as a society compartmentalize ourselves so much and it's very this, like, I go into business mode and head down super focused, like this is what I'm doing. And then when I'm with friends, it's a little bit different. And I think my hope with social media is that it really does start to show that we have all of these facets and that you can have all of these facets and you can have blue hair and a rhinestone eyepatch and be excellent at your job. And I think that, like, we're still having to break that barrier down and like myself included, like, I still come from this place of like, Oh, but I need to be in heels and slacks, you know, and it's, it's gonna be interesting to see how social media starts to change that conversation over the generations.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas 50:27
Absolutely. There's so much more visibility and representation as well, it's nice to see that, you know, people are, there are more stories to be had other than the ones that we could get on PBS, you know, with rabbit ears. So I love hearing that perspective, too, because I can get really down about social media a lot. And it there's a lot that's icky about it, but it gives us such access, there's a lot of hope to be had in it.
Sybil Grieb 50:55
Well, and it's interesting. I mean, that's one of the other pieces that drew me to Whalar is that their entire ethos is about empowering creators, and that they really want to promote all of the different creative voices. And representation is so, so important. So one of the things that makes them really different as a company is it's not just the influencer marketing piece. Like they have a whole tech component where they're building these proprietary tech platforms, both for the brands to be able to use as well as the creators to be able to use. They also represent talent. Because in that way, they're staying very close to like the the talent managers, they're very close to the talent. They're very close to the platforms they're seeing, oh there is an algorithm change. And everybody's upset about this. Like we know constantly what is going on, we've got our finger on the pulse. There's the brand partnerships side, which I'm on the brand partnerships side. So that's putting together these really bespoke campaigns for clients. And then there's also the Innovation Hub. And I'm also on the Innovation Hub side, which is Web4, the metaverse, NFTs. All of what's coming down the pipeline, what's coming around the corner. And the piece that I get the most excited about. I mean, I get, it's like you go back and forth being like, this is terrifying. We're gonna live in a video game, what? But at the same time, we're all in a virtual experience right now. Like I can see you guys. This virtual experience ends when we hang up from Zoom. What does it look like if it's a persistent world and we're all meeting in this metaverse? And so you know, the idea of the metaverse not being new, obviously, like I was playing World of Warcraft in 2006. And you know, persistent world, I go eat dinner, everyone else is still running around killing orcs, whatever. But there's this idea of like, really making sure we're at this pivotal point where the metaverse, we don't exactly know what it's going to shake out to be, We have no idea. I mean, it's still there's all these things being built. If you told me 20 years ago, it wasn't going to go into clothing stores, and I was gonna buy pictures of things online. I would be like, you're totally kidding. Yeah, like, we don't know how it's going to evolve. But it is coming. And it is evolving. And pieces are being built here and pieces there. And hopefully, they'll interconnect in some way. But it's this really exciting time where we have to get these different voices in there. Because if you look at what's happening, it's very like early days gaming, and it's predominantly white. It's predominantly male, and it's predominantly high household income. And so if we aren't getting other voices in to help build and shape this Metaverse, to help create all of these different things. I do feel that that's going to happen eventually. But wouldn't it be amazing if it was kind of from the beginning?
Scott Robson 51:13
So Kate, that was Sybil Grieb.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas 53:59
Oh my gosh, she's so fantastic. Thank you for bringing her on.
Scott Robson 54:03
Yeah, she's really really good. She's so funny. Again, I think if I make some really, really expert, humorous guests lately, which I'm really happy about. But I really loved this episode, because you and I both have a love/hate relationship with marketing.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas 54:18
Oh my gosh, I think that that's true to say for me, and I think it's true to say for a lot of people. You know, I don't know if you have this experience, but a lot of times I'll get into conversations initially with clients and they'll say phrases like, I'm bad at marketing, or I need to focus more on marketing. And it just becomes this like massive concept. It's like this behemoth when you say it that way. And so I always feel like if you're staring at something big, you're gonna have a love hate relationship because you're like, ooh, if I could crack that nut I will do so well, but also, wow, it's a big one to crack.
Scott Robson 54:57
It's such a huge way. Think about it. every single client that I work with is the same thing. And even for myself, I think I'm like - you and I talked about this and like, I need to do some more marketing. But I think marketing, it can be complicated, it can be expensive, it could represent a lot of what we don't know, like, I got to learn all this stuff now. And it really feels like a pass/fail, you know, you're throwing a lot of money at something, you might not see the return on it. So it represents a lot of risks, too. So I think, you know, marketing really is this massive concept for so many people.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas 55:30
Which is why I loved talking with Sybil, because I feel like she really starts to help us break it down a bit more, and take very specific action so that we can start to have a different relationship with it other than this big old, massive thing that we all know, we have to do.
Scott Robson 55:49
Completely. Although I have to say, reflecting back on this episode, it was really interesting to see how my own resistance to marketing came up.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas 56:01
We share the same experience. Yeah. What wass that like for you? Tell me about it.
Scott Robson 56:07
So when I think of marketing, for myself, I think of total perfectionism. It triggers my perfectionism so deeply, where I feel like I need to get it right. And that's also because I love to figure stuff out. I love like the nuts and bolts of things. I'm a bit of a techy person. So I'm like, this just satisfies a lot of very obsessive elements of my personality all at once, which probably isn't a good thing.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas 56:30
It's so interesting that you bring up the perfectionism because one of the key takeaways here is the sense of like, maybe experimenting a little bit and testing a bit. And so I can understand that you're feeling a resistance around it, because it's like, well, it's got to be perfect. But perfectionism is not conducive to experimentation.
Scott Robson 56:51
It's so, it's the opposite of experimentation. Yeah, you're absolutely right. I love that she said that because... I was explaining this to you last week outside of our podcast..that I really am trying to re approach my marketing, like, there's something off about it for me, I'm not really connecting in with it. And so I put it on pause while I figure that out. And I was like, Oh, I could just experiment with this.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas 57:11
Oh, my gosh, wouldn't that be great? You know, what was fun to talk about with Sybil was, you know, in those first couple of years of your business, really being able to focus in: what is your audience? What is the platform that's right for you? How can you play with your different messages?
Scott Robson 57:30
Yeah. And all of that is just experimentation, right? With your messaging. And with the platform. And we touched on this a little bit how paid marketing really is there's this misnomer that it's only for people with, you know, in the big leagues with bigger companies. But Sybil was very, very clear about pointing out like that is not true. Smaller companies can absolutely do this.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas 57:49
Yeah. And, you know, just speaking to your resistance component, right, like, so you said that the resistance comes around the perfectionism. My personal resistance around marketing is like, Well, I'm not there yet. Right? I am not at that place. So I have to like know something. And I think that this is part of the like figuring it out, there's probably a lot of similarities between what you and I are saying here. But like, it shows up for me as in, I need to be further ahead, in order for this to really apply to me. And as I was feeling that I was realizing, Oh, can I challenge this here? And what would it look like for me to apply some of the things that Sybil was sharing with us? Right? Yeah. So particularly when you I think you're getting to this to about the like aspirational competitors, who are where you want to be in three years, five years, 10 years, even beyond? Right?
Scott Robson 58:45
Totally, that's exactly right. And I think that, you know, this idea that you can go out there, you could do some paid marketing, it doesn't have to be that expensive. It's like, throw 20 bucks at it, you know, throw 50 bucks on it, throw 100. It doesn't need to be this $30,000 campaign, and you can be aspirational, and just try to play in that same ballpark with people. And it's really interesting, cuz when she said that, I was like, Oh, right. We don't have to stay small in our marketing. And I think that that was this limiting beliefs that I had, that I didn't even realize that I had until she said it.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas 59:16
Hmm, that's interesting, like, so you can align your your messaging, you can align where you're going with like, where you're seeing some of your competitors, or the companies that inspire you to to keep going. You know, what we aren't talking about here is the first step that I think she really gave us, which is that research component. And I think that I see a lot of people just dive in like they just kind of like go out there and start throwing spaghetti at the wall, which is great. As long as you're assessing, how's it doing? What's the data coming back and showing you? But there is that moment before to say, okay, what are the people with the resources that I don't currently have, how are they approaching this particular problem? And there's... the word didn't come up, but what I think is present here is curiosity, right? Like, how can I be curious about what others are doing? And how does how does it work at this stage? And getting really curious and playful with it?
Scott Robson 1:00:20
I think so too. And one of the things that I always like to tell my clients when we're doing this sort of research, and this is so important to do for everybody, is number one, consider these people, Yeah, you're, they're your competitors, but they're also your colleagues in your space. Right? And I think that shift of moving from competitor to colleague is really important. Yeah, you might be going after some of the same clients. But it's more of the idea of, there's room at the table for everybody. So see what other people are doing. See what resonates with you. And so I love that she went there of like research is really, really critical. And also going back to just what we were talking about, and so you start to understand a little bit about what you like, and what you don't like. Because there's a lot of stuff out there that you're not gonna like, and you're gonna be like, I don't want to do it that way. And you're like, great, it's your business, you don't have to do it.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas 1:01:11
Well that where the benefits of marketing being actually so huge. There's lots of ways to market, there's so many different ways. You can leverage so many different strategies. And really here today, we were focusing on, you know, social media and influencer marketing, which I loved everything that Sybil was sharing about her experience with influencer marketing and what to do. But I was particularly excited - and this speaks to also what you were just saying about being a colleague - is that many of you listeners out there might want to use influencer marketing or creator marketing as a strategy in your own business. And you also might be an influencer or a soon to be influencer. And so when you look at this conversation through that lens, it is very exciting and empowering.
Scott Robson 1:02:00
It really is. And that was such a good question. When were you asked that I was like, Oh, that's such a good point. Something else that you had said prior to us getting on this was talking about when your message becomes too precious that it can't evolve with you. I love that you said that I didn't want to let it go. Because I just thought it was so important for people to hear.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas 1:02:17
Yeah, you know, I, I have a tendency to feel like I need to hit the nail on the head. Right? Like really get it. And I'm actually struggling with this right now. My marketing support person, Jenna, is always like, Can we move on from this conversation, please? But no, it's like, what's the language? What's the language? What's the language? And I think that that is a worthy inquiry. But I tend to, when you feel like you have to hit the nail on the head, that means that you're kind of married to that message once you get there. And then I just forget that we need to constantly be listening in. What's actually resonating for our listeners? And just because I like those words, doesn't mean that it makes any difference to them. Right. And I think that this happens a lot, particularly for us, you and I've spoken about this probably together and with our own clients is like when are you using language that really speaks to you because you're further ahead in your clients journey than they are, right. So like, you know, they're just not necessarily looking for what we know they're... I'm not being very specific, I bet you could come up with a specific example of this.
Scott Robson 1:03:35
I just love that point that you made. And as you're talking, what was resonating with me was what just Sybil's whole journey about how she started 100 Hats. And then she did what was right for her, which was that she sort of put it down and move back into a corporate job because she saw this opportunity to learn. And I think so many entrepreneurs, I think that there's an echo of that in this which is like: always be staying true to yourself and never holding anything that's too precious, and letting that message and your business always evolve with you. I think that your business has to. I think it's critical. I think that if you're not invested in your business and your message, your clients are going to hear that, your customers are going to hear that. And that lack of engagement is going to show up somewhere. So yeah, I just think that you're right. Just like it becoming too precious that it can't evolve with you. It's that's a that could be really, really tricky thing if that happens. So not being quite so close fisted around it, I think.
Kate Jaeger-Thomas 1:04:30
Yeah. And you know, bringing that sense of playfulness, experimentation and curiosity. It's all there. I'm so glad you brought her back around to Sybil's journey because I was so taken with that moment when she was like, Wait, this isn't going to grow the way I want it to.Ddoing the work that I really love to do. And you can always whether it's a business or a career or a contract job or something... like you can always find the work that really speaks to what you want to do. We don't need to compromise and grow for the sake of growth, but we can grow in the way that we want. And her business and her story really echoes that beautifully. It was awesome.